From aaron at cocoanutstech.com Sun Aug 2 00:44:28 2009 From: aaron at cocoanutstech.com (Aaron Rosenzweig) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 18:44:28 -0400 Subject: Headless on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <86fxcc6h5u.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <86fxcc6h5u.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <4D5D67FB-2D84-4A86-97BE-CA11D70406A4@cocoanutstech.com> I'd like to thank Mariano, John, and Randal for giving me pointers, Please someone correct me if I am wrong but I believe it is *impossible* to run Squeak headless in a nice manner on Mac OS X with the ready made VMs that are available for download. LSBackgroundOnly - setting this property to "true" in the plist file seems to have no effect. Using "-headless" from the command line and specifying the path to the smalltalk image works like a charm but *only* from a terminal window... which is pretty useless... Because if I'm doing it there I might was well double click the .app bundle and have all the bells and whistles in a GUI environment. The idea is to use launchctl to control the startup and shutdown of the daemon Squeak process without a user even having to login. When I try to launch it this way (as the "appserver" user) I get this error in the unix system console: -headless: kCGErrorRangeCheck : Window Server communications from outside of session allowed for root and console user only After a bit of research, I realize that the "kCGErrorRangeCheck" happens whenever you use a Carbon framework. It pretty much is non- avoidable unless you are using pure cocoa or unix frameworks. The Carbon stuff calls initialization bits that require a window server. According to this link - http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com/ squeak.html - A pure Cocoa version is in the works but not out now. Please, if someone hears my call enlighten me. It shouldn't be this hard. My current tact is to download the source for the VM and see if there are options to be set that disable the window server completely. Does this sound feasible? I hope so, it's the only shimmer of light I can grasp for. That or just build a linux box to run Squeak... Any and all tips appreciated, -- Aaron From johnmci at smalltalkconsulting.com Sun Aug 2 02:20:59 2009 From: johnmci at smalltalkconsulting.com (John M McIntosh) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 17:20:59 -0700 Subject: Headless on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <4D5D67FB-2D84-4A86-97BE-CA11D70406A4@cocoanutstech.com> References: <86fxcc6h5u.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <4D5D67FB-2D84-4A86-97BE-CA11D70406A4@cocoanutstech.com> Message-ID: LSBackgroundOnly ok let me look at that logic. Yes it appears you must pass in your wish to make the vm -headless via the command line. Otherwise it will switch the LSBackgroundOnly to no so that the application icon will appear in the doc If you set LSBackgroundOnly to yes and pass in -headless then it will run headless and not appear in the dock. In trying this I had to do ./Squeak\ VM\ Opt.app/Contents/MacOS/Squeak\ VM\ Opt -headless Squeakx.image so you need to indicate both headless and where the image is, and set LSBackgroundOnly to YES However I did not check this outside of having a user logon. Also see http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Carbon/Conceptual/LaunchServicesConcepts/LSCConcepts/LSCConcepts.html#/ /apple_ref/doc/uid/TP30000999-CH202-DontLinkElementID_3 and maybe http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2002/tn2062.html You know your other choice is you can use the unix version of the squeak vm that has been compiled to run on os-x. On 1-Aug-09, at 3:44 PM, Aaron Rosenzweig wrote: > I'd like to thank Mariano, John, and Randal for giving me pointers, > > Please someone correct me if I am wrong but I believe it is > *impossible* to run Squeak headless in a nice manner on Mac OS X > with the ready made VMs that are available for download. > > LSBackgroundOnly - setting this property to "true" in the plist file > seems to have no effect. > > Using "-headless" from the command line and specifying the path to > the smalltalk image works like a charm but *only* from a terminal > window... which is pretty useless... Because if I'm doing it there I > might was well double click the .app bundle and have all the bells > and whistles in a GUI environment. > > The idea is to use launchctl to control the startup and shutdown of > the daemon Squeak process without a user even having to login. When > I try to launch it this way (as the "appserver" user) I get this > error in the unix system console: > > -headless: kCGErrorRangeCheck : Window Server communications from > outside of session allowed for root and console user only > > After a bit of research, I realize that the "kCGErrorRangeCheck" > happens whenever you use a Carbon framework. It pretty much is non- > avoidable unless you are using pure cocoa or unix frameworks. The > Carbon stuff calls initialization bits that require a window server. > According to this link - http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com/squeak.html > - A pure Cocoa version is in the works but not out now. > > Please, if someone hears my call enlighten me. It shouldn't be this > hard. My current tact is to download the source for the VM and see > if there are options to be set that disable the window server > completely. Does this sound feasible? I hope so, it's the only > shimmer of light I can grasp for. That or just build a linux box to > run Squeak... > > Any and all tips appreciated, > -- Aaron > > > _______________________________________________ > Magritte, Pier and Related Tools ... > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/smallwiki -- = = = ======================================================================== John M. McIntosh Twitter: squeaker68882 Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com = = = ======================================================================== From aaron at cocoanutstech.com Sun Aug 2 03:03:58 2009 From: aaron at cocoanutstech.com (Aaron Rosenzweig) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 21:03:58 -0400 Subject: Headless on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: References: <86fxcc6h5u.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <4D5D67FB-2D84-4A86-97BE-CA11D70406A4@cocoanutstech.com> Message-ID: <38F82E1E-222E-46C0-92E1-9310E6224DC4@cocoanutstech.com> Thanks John, Actually I found that it didn't seem to matter much what the value of LSBackgroundOnly was. Just starting up from the command line in terminal with the option "-headless" was enough to have it come up without a GUI (in OS 10.4 Tiger). I went to: http://www.squeak.org/Download/ Somehow my eyes missed the link to the pre-compiled unix binaries for OS X. Thanks for alerting me that they are there, I see them now. I guess because they weren't listed in the Mac section but in the general unix section I glossed over them. Anyway, I downloaded the unix source from there and compiled. Wow! it was really easy and really fast. I passed the following line to configure before I compiled: ../platforms/unix/config/configure --without-quartz --without-x after doing "make" and "make install" I ran the following to test it out from the terminal first: squeak -vm-display-null -vm-sound-null -headless /Applications/ Pier-1.2.app/Contents/Resources/pier.image Unfortunately I got hit with: This interpreter (vers. 6502) cannot read image file (vers. 6504). Press CR to quit... You see, I downloaded the Pier one-click-install bundle from the piercms website... as Pier is really the product I want to play with most at this moment and I figure this image would be the most up to date. But now digging under the covers it appears that maybe this one- click install does not use true Squeak but the new "Pharo" VM? Many thanks, -- Aaron On Aug 1, 2009, at 8:20 PM, John M McIntosh wrote: > LSBackgroundOnly ok let me look at that logic. > Yes it appears you must pass in your wish to make the vm -headless > via the command line. > Otherwise it will switch the LSBackgroundOnly to no so that the > application icon will appear in the doc > If you set LSBackgroundOnly to yes and pass in -headless then it > will run headless and not appear in the dock. > > In trying this I had to do > > ./Squeak\ VM\ Opt.app/Contents/MacOS/Squeak\ VM\ Opt -headless > Squeakx.image > > so you need to indicate both headless and where the image is, and > set LSBackgroundOnly to YES > > However I did not check this outside of having a user logon. > > Also see > http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Carbon/Conceptual/ > LaunchServicesConcepts/LSCConcepts/LSCConcepts.html#//apple_ref/doc/ > uid/TP30000999-CH202-DontLinkElementID_3 > and maybe > http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2002/tn2062.html > > > You know your other choice is you can use the unix version of the > squeak vm that has been compiled to run on os-x. > > From aaron at cocoanutstech.com Sun Aug 2 04:30:22 2009 From: aaron at cocoanutstech.com (Aaron Rosenzweig) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 22:30:22 -0400 Subject: Headless on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <38F82E1E-222E-46C0-92E1-9310E6224DC4@cocoanutstech.com> References: <86fxcc6h5u.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <4D5D67FB-2D84-4A86-97BE-CA11D70406A4@cocoanutstech.com> <38F82E1E-222E-46C0-92E1-9310E6224DC4@cocoanutstech.com> Message-ID: <09FBEC68-E7B3-449F-BD5F-56FC2BCF372C@cocoanutstech.com> Hi Everyone, Ok, I looked briefly at the Pharo VM source but it didn't seem nearly as easy to build as the Squeak one. So I gave up on it for the moment. I decided to try a Squeak VM with a Squeak developer image that already had Pier on it (albeit an older version... but that should be upgradeable...). I'm able to double click and get it to launch and then confirm in my web browser that Pier is alive and well. Unfortunately when I try to do it from the command line it appears to hang. No errors, warnings, etc. But I can't access Pier through my web browser. It certainly appears that it "halfway" started up. When I try to do it from launchctl it keeps aborting and after 10 tries gives up. The console looks like this: Aug 1 21:57:51 Super-Lan-Boy sudo: recurve : TTY=ttyp2 ; PWD=/ Library/LaunchDaemons ; USER=root ; COMMAND=/bin/launchctl load / Library/LaunchDaemons/com.squeak.seaside.plist Aug 1 21:57:51 Super-Lan-Boy launchd: com.squeak.seaside: exited abnormally: Abort trap Aug 1 21:57:51 Super-Lan-Boy launchd: com.squeak.seaside: respawning too quickly! throttling Aug 1 21:57:51 Super-Lan-Boy launchd: com.squeak.seaside: 9 more failures without living at least 60 seconds will cause job removal ... keeps going until finally... Aug 1 21:59:11 Super-Lan-Boy launchd: com.squeak.seaside: will restart in 10 seconds Aug 1 21:59:21 Super-Lan-Boy launchd: com.squeak.seaside: exited abnormally: Abort trap Aug 1 21:59:21 Super-Lan-Boy launchd: com.squeak.seaside: respawning too quickly! throttling Aug 1 21:59:21 Super-Lan-Boy launchd: com.squeak.seaside: too many failures in succession For the curious, here is what my launchctl plist looks like at the moment: Disabled GroupName appserverusr Label com.squeak.seaside OnDemand Program /usr/local/bin/squeak ProgramArguments -vm-display-null -vm-sound-null -headless /Applications/Smalltalk/Seaside-2/Seaside-2.8-573.image ServiceIPC UserName appserver Then you attempt to invoke it with: sudo launchctl load /Library/LaunchDaemons/com.squeak.seaside.plist Cheers, -- Aaron From johnmci at smalltalkconsulting.com Sun Aug 2 05:57:33 2009 From: johnmci at smalltalkconsulting.com (John M McIntosh) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 20:57:33 -0700 Subject: Headless on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <38F82E1E-222E-46C0-92E1-9310E6224DC4@cocoanutstech.com> References: <86fxcc6h5u.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <4D5D67FB-2D84-4A86-97BE-CA11D70406A4@cocoanutstech.com> <38F82E1E-222E-46C0-92E1-9310E6224DC4@cocoanutstech.com> Message-ID: The squeak VM and the pharo VM use the same source tree, just at different times The Pharo VM uses the *latest* VM source tree which includes the Closure logic. When you take an image and make it Closure aware and save it, then it becomes a image format of 6504, versus the older 6502. When you build the squeak unix VM I think it uses an REALLY OLD source tree. What you need to do is build a new VM source tree using VMMaker and use the latest MC change set. Then replace the old source tree with the new one you create out of VMMaker. The macintosh platform tree see platforms/Mac OS/vm/Documentation/ readme.txt has some notes about building the macintosh VM using VMMaker which might prove useful. In you other note: "9 more failures without living at least 60 seconds will cause job removal" Something is causing the VM to die, then launchctl is restarting, but too frequently and you're curtains. I'd suggest creating a new unix vm from the latest VMMaker. Ask on the vm-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org if you can't get the process to work for unix. On 1-Aug-09, at 6:03 PM, Aaron Rosenzweig wrote: > Thanks John, > > Actually I found that it didn't seem to matter much what the value > of LSBackgroundOnly was. Just starting up from the command line in > terminal with the option "-headless" was enough to have it come up > without a GUI (in OS 10.4 Tiger). > > I went to: http://www.squeak.org/Download/ > > Somehow my eyes missed the link to the pre-compiled unix binaries > for OS X. Thanks for alerting me that they are there, I see them > now. I guess because they weren't listed in the Mac section but in > the general unix section I glossed over them. Anyway, I downloaded > the unix source from there and compiled. Wow! it was really easy and > really fast. I passed the following line to configure before I > compiled: > > ../platforms/unix/config/configure --without-quartz --without-x > > after doing "make" and "make install" I ran the following to test it > out from the terminal first: > > squeak -vm-display-null -vm-sound-null -headless /Applications/ > Pier-1.2.app/Contents/Resources/pier.image > > Unfortunately I got hit with: > > This interpreter (vers. 6502) cannot read image file (vers. 6504). > Press CR to quit... > > You see, I downloaded the Pier one-click-install bundle from the > piercms website... as Pier is really the product I want to play with > most at this moment and I figure this image would be the most up to > date. But now digging under the covers it appears that maybe this > one-click install does not use true Squeak but the new "Pharo" VM? > > Many thanks, > -- Aaron -- = = = ======================================================================== John M. McIntosh Twitter: squeaker68882 Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com = = = ======================================================================== From aaron at cocoanutstech.com Sun Aug 2 16:23:29 2009 From: aaron at cocoanutstech.com (Aaron Rosenzweig) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 10:23:29 -0400 Subject: Headless on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: References: <86fxcc6h5u.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <4D5D67FB-2D84-4A86-97BE-CA11D70406A4@cocoanutstech.com> <38F82E1E-222E-46C0-92E1-9310E6224DC4@cocoanutstech.com> Message-ID: Stop the presses! I got it working :-) Sorry for cross posting. I'll write it up in more detail later, on my own Pier installation even! But here's the rough notes at the moment: 1) I'm on Mac OS 10.4 Tiger on Intel 2) I downloaded the Pier 1.2 one-click install from www.piercms.com that is running on Pharo VM I believe 3) I enabled LSBackgroundOnly = true in the "info.plist" file inside the .app bundle resources - The purpose of this is to not let the app startup in the dock... I had somehow missed this before because my dock is normally hidden. 4) Needed to use "-headless" option as that is the only one that works with this vm. The -vm-display-null option does not work. Here's the command I use to load into launchd: sudo launchctl load /Library/LaunchDaemons/com.squeak.seaside.plist (That also shows the path to where I put the custom plist file in for launchd). Below is the contents of the launchd plist file Disabled Label com.squeak.seaside OnDemand ProgramArguments /Applications/Smalltalk/Pier-1.2.app/Contents/MacOS/Squeak VM Opt -headless /Applications/Smalltalk/Pier-1.2.app/Contents/Resources/ pier.image ServiceIPC StandardErrorPath /Library/Logs/com.squeak.seaside.log StandardOutPath /Library/Logs/com.squeak.seaside.log UserName root Again, I'll write more later, and clarify once I get Pier set up on the desired server Mac. Thanks everyone, -- Aaron From v.krishnakumar at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 00:16:54 2009 From: v.krishnakumar at gmail.com (Krishna) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 03:46:54 +0530 Subject: Pier site transfer problem Message-ID: Hi all, Wanted to upgrade my aging (pre 1.1) pier installation. Downloaded the image running on the server and updated magritte and pier to their latest revisions on lr's repository. Then following http://www.lukas-renggli.ch/blog/export-import, I exported the current site contents. But when importing the resulting file back into the pier-1.2 one-click image , I get this error: Unable to import: 'Global "CZBibList" not found'. How do I fix this? Worst case, I can simply copy back the updated image but I'd like to use the new 1.2 one-click image as it is much smaller. Thanks in advance, --Krishna -- I long to accomplish a great and noble task, but it is my chief duty to accomplish small tasks as if they were great and noble ! -- Helen Keller From renggli at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 00:23:10 2009 From: renggli at gmail.com (Lukas Renggli) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 00:23:10 +0200 Subject: Pier site transfer problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67628d690908041523w17b1d655m84670e6e29144296@mail.gmail.com> > Unable to import: 'Global "CZBibList" not found'. > > How do I fix this? Looks like in the new image you miss the class CZBibList. You need to make sure to have the same plugins loaded in the new image that you were using in the old one. I guess in your case the plugin in question is CiteZen (http://www.piercms.com/doc/add-ons#105419994). Cheers, Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch From girba at iam.unibe.ch Wed Aug 5 00:25:47 2009 From: girba at iam.unibe.ch (Tudor Girba) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 00:25:47 +0200 Subject: Pier site transfer problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21E3F0B0-40F7-4F3E-A657-B467FC726341@iam.unibe.ch> Hi, It looks like you have an instance of a CZBibList in your Pier, and that the class is not present in the new image. You have two options: 1. remove the CZBibList instance from your original Pier 2. load CZBibList in the second image - If you go for this solution the problem might be that Citezen has evolved significantly over the last months. So I would suggest to have a look at the exact version that you have loaded in your original Pier and load exactly those packages in the new one. Cheers, Doru On 5 Aug 2009, at 00:16, Krishna wrote: > Hi all, > > Wanted to upgrade my aging (pre 1.1) pier installation. Downloaded the > image running on the server and updated magritte and pier to their > latest revisions on lr's repository. Then following > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch/blog/export-import, I exported the current > site contents. But when importing the resulting file back into the > pier-1.2 one-click image , I get this error: > > Unable to import: 'Global "CZBibList" not found'. > > How do I fix this? > > Worst case, I can simply copy back the updated image but I'd like to > use the new 1.2 one-click image as it is much smaller. > > Thanks in advance, > --Krishna > > -- > I long to accomplish a great and noble task, but it is my chief duty > to accomplish small tasks as if they were great and noble ! > -- Helen Keller > _______________________________________________ > Magritte, Pier and Related Tools ... > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/smallwiki -- www.tudorgirba.com "Obvious things are difficult to teach." From v.krishnakumar at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 00:49:56 2009 From: v.krishnakumar at gmail.com (Krishna) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 04:19:56 +0530 Subject: Pier site transfer problem In-Reply-To: <67628d690908041523w17b1d655m84670e6e29144296@mail.gmail.com> References: <67628d690908041523w17b1d655m84670e6e29144296@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 3:53 AM, Lukas Renggli wrote: >> Unable to import: 'Global "CZBibList" not found'. >> >> How do I fix this? > > Looks like in the new image you miss the class CZBibList. You need to > make sure to have the same plugins loaded in the new image that you > were using in the old one. I guess in your case the plugin in question > is CiteZen (http://www.piercms.com/doc/add-ons#105419994). thanks, I got a little confused by the term plugin. I thought you were referring to the VM plugins although It din't make sense. --Krishna -- I long to accomplish a great and noble task, but it is my chief duty to accomplish small tasks as if they were great and noble ! -- Helen Keller From v.krishnakumar at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 00:57:53 2009 From: v.krishnakumar at gmail.com (Krishna) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 04:27:53 +0530 Subject: Pier site transfer problem In-Reply-To: <21E3F0B0-40F7-4F3E-A657-B467FC726341@iam.unibe.ch> References: <21E3F0B0-40F7-4F3E-A657-B467FC726341@iam.unibe.ch> Message-ID: Hi, Thanks for the quick reply. On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 3:55 AM, Tudor Girba wrote: > Hi, > > It looks like you have an instance of a CZBibList in your Pier, and that the > class is not present in the new image. > > You have two options: > > 1. remove the CZBibList instance from your original Pier > How do I remove it? I looked inside Environment and I don't see it. > 2. load CZBibList in the second image > - If you go for this solution the problem might be that Citezen has evolved > significantly over the last months. So I would suggest to have a look at the > exact version that you have loaded in your original Pier and load exactly > those packages in the new one. > I tried this and there seems to be additional dependencies (SmaCC etc). Ideally I'd like to remove it from the old pier. --Krishna -- I long to accomplish a great and noble task, but it is my chief duty to accomplish small tasks as if they were great and noble ! -- Helen Keller From aaron at cocoanutstech.com Thu Aug 6 06:08:26 2009 From: aaron at cocoanutstech.com (Aaron Rosenzweig) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 00:08:26 -0400 Subject: Detailed instructions: Pier Headless on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: References: <86fxcc6h5u.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <4D5D67FB-2D84-4A86-97BE-CA11D70406A4@cocoanutstech.com> <38F82E1E-222E-46C0-92E1-9310E6224DC4@cocoanutstech.com> Message-ID: <9041B78C-E8D1-49A3-9F5B-15C415867993@cocoanutstech.com> Hello Everyone, I've outlined detailed instructions on how to get Pier up and running as a server process on Mac OS X: http://www.somethingiknow.com/aaronCorner/aaronSoftwareBlog/ Pier_headless_on_Mac_OS_X Kudos to everyone who has ever contributed to Pier. I was impressed to see sessionless URLs working out-of-the-box. It's a fiendishly clever application. Thank you for allowing people like me to partake in your glory, -- Aaron From renggli at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 10:24:38 2009 From: renggli at gmail.com (Lukas Renggli) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 10:24:38 +0200 Subject: Detailed instructions: Pier Headless on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <9041B78C-E8D1-49A3-9F5B-15C415867993@cocoanutstech.com> References: <86fxcc6h5u.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <4D5D67FB-2D84-4A86-97BE-CA11D70406A4@cocoanutstech.com> <38F82E1E-222E-46C0-92E1-9310E6224DC4@cocoanutstech.com> <9041B78C-E8D1-49A3-9F5B-15C415867993@cocoanutstech.com> Message-ID: <67628d690908100124q22b8c41bqccef5334df52799d@mail.gmail.com> Thank your for this excellent write-up. I linked your article from . Also I added your site to the list of known Pier installations. I hope you don't mind? Cheers, Lukas 2009/8/6 Aaron Rosenzweig : > Hello Everyone, > > I've outlined detailed instructions on how to get Pier up and running as a > server process on Mac OS X: > > http://www.somethingiknow.com/aaronCorner/aaronSoftwareBlog/Pier_headless_on_Mac_OS_X > > Kudos to everyone who has ever contributed to Pier. I was impressed to see > sessionless URLs working out-of-the-box. It's a fiendishly clever > application. > > Thank you for allowing people like me to partake in your glory, > -- Aaron > _______________________________________________ > Magritte, Pier and Related Tools ... > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/smallwiki > -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch From nicolas.roard at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 01:23:56 2009 From: nicolas.roard at gmail.com (Nicolas Roard) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 00:23:56 +0100 Subject: script to restart an image Message-ID: <25626500908131623r781dd541wbf0cac8ffb5d83a@mail.gmail.com> Hi, This little bash script might be useful to some: #!/bin/bash NAME=pier_backup VM_PATH=/var/www/pier OPTIONS="-vm-display-X11 -headless -vm-sound-null -mmap 64m" VM="$VM_PATH/vm/pharo-vm-0.15.2d-linux/squeak $OPTIONS" LOOKUP="$NAME*.image" ls $VM_PATH/$LOOKUP -t1 | while read fn do TEST=`ps ax | grep squeak | grep -c $NAME` if [ $TEST == 0 ] then echo "RESTART VM $fn" $VM $fn & fi exit done Stick it in your crontab, and it will automatically restart squeak if somehow it died, using the last backup pier created (image persistency) -- Nicolas Roard "I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." -- Douglas Adams From maarten.mostert at wanadoo.fr Mon Aug 17 06:18:11 2009 From: maarten.mostert at wanadoo.fr (Maarten MOSTERT) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 06:18:11 +0200 Subject: Google Gears Message-ID: Hi, When I do a yahoo search with the name of my website and then point to it yahoo tells me: What is the explanation for this behaviour. Best regards, @+Maarten, -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 25227 bytes Desc: not available URL: From renggli at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 07:28:15 2009 From: renggli at gmail.com (Lukas Renggli) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 07:28:15 +0200 Subject: Google Gears In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67628d690908162228n31102cc5ic05e679249fe307f@mail.gmail.com> > When I do a yahoo search with the name of my website and then point to it > yahoo tells me: How is this related to Pier? Can you provide more information? Cheers, Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch From maarten.mostert at wanadoo.fr Mon Aug 17 09:33:09 2009 From: maarten.mostert at wanadoo.fr (Maarten MOSTERT) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 09:33:09 +0200 Subject: Google Gears In-Reply-To: <67628d690908162228n31102cc5ic05e679249fe307f@mail.gmail.com> References: <67628d690908162228n31102cc5ic05e679249fe307f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99CD400AC32A4D0E80ABD787CCA81E42@MacBookWindows> My website http://stakepoint.com/ runs Pier 1.2 This window only popsup when using chrome under IE it doesn't. I just want to check out that Pier does not something inteligent provoking this thing. Regards, @+Maarten, PS Allthough very simple, it would be cool if add my website under projects: StakePoint project management software (stakepoint.com) > >> When I do a yahoo search with the name of my website and then point to it >> yahoo tells me: > > How is this related to Pier? Can you provide more information? > > Cheers, > Lukas > > -- > Lukas Renggli > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch > _______________________________________________ > Magritte, Pier and Related Tools ... > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/smallwiki > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ce message entrant est certifie sans virus connu. Analyse effectuee par AVG - www.avg.fr Version: 8.5.375 / Base de donnees virale: 270.13.58/2306 - Date: 08/16/09 06:09:00 From renggli at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 09:39:55 2009 From: renggli at gmail.com (Lukas Renggli) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 09:39:55 +0200 Subject: Google Gears In-Reply-To: <99CD400AC32A4D0E80ABD787CCA81E42@MacBookWindows> References: <67628d690908162228n31102cc5ic05e679249fe307f@mail.gmail.com> <99CD400AC32A4D0E80ABD787CCA81E42@MacBookWindows> Message-ID: <67628d690908170039o5d4b2d19r81541b15337a0cde@mail.gmail.com> > I just want to check out that Pier does not something inteligent provoking > this thing. No, Pier does not use Google Gears. I cannot reproduce the problem with Chrome, Safari, Opera and FireFox. > PS Allthough very simple, it would be cool if add my website under projects: > StakePoint project management software (stakepoint.com) Great, I added the link. Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch From nicolas.roard at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 12:48:48 2009 From: nicolas.roard at gmail.com (Nicolas Roard) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 11:48:48 +0100 Subject: Google Gears In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25626500908170348i26c6fdb2hc27eadfce6bd455c@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 5:18 AM, Maarten MOSTERT wrote: > Hi, > > When I do a yahoo search with the name of my website and then point to it > yahoo tells me: > > > > > What is the explanation for this behaviour. This has nothing to do with pier -- it just seems that yahoo is using the gears database module, that's all. Apparently it's not used everytime (can't reproduce it here) so my bet is that it's a small experiment (i.e. they probably only push it on a fraction of their users). We saw it reported on the gears mailing list as well (I used to work on gears). -- Nicolas Roard "I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." -- Douglas Adams From renggli at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 13:06:41 2009 From: renggli at gmail.com (Lukas Renggli) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 13:06:41 +0200 Subject: Google Gears In-Reply-To: <25626500908170348i26c6fdb2hc27eadfce6bd455c@mail.gmail.com> References: <25626500908170348i26c6fdb2hc27eadfce6bd455c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <67628d690908170406g4d2f78d4rb4c5acd6acbf0639@mail.gmail.com> > This has nothing to do with pier -- it just seems that yahoo is using > the gears database module, that's all. Apparently it's not used > everytime (can't reproduce it here) so my bet is that it's a small > experiment (i.e. they probably only push it on a fraction of their > users). > We saw it reported on the gears mailing list as well (I used to work on gears). Heh, thank you for the update. Cheers, Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch From marianopeck at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 00:26:53 2009 From: marianopeck at gmail.com (Mariano Martinez Peck) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 19:26:53 -0300 Subject: Google Gears In-Reply-To: <99CD400AC32A4D0E80ABD787CCA81E42@MacBookWindows> References: <67628d690908162228n31102cc5ic05e679249fe307f@mail.gmail.com> <99CD400AC32A4D0E80ABD787CCA81E42@MacBookWindows> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Maarten MOSTERT wrote: > My website http://stakepoint.com/ runs Pier 1.2 > Interesting project. May I ask in which programming language is it done? VW? Best, Mariano > > This window only popsup when using chrome under IE it doesn't. > > I just want to check out that Pier does not something inteligent provoking > this thing. > > Regards, > > @+Maarten, > > PS Allthough very simple, it would be cool if add my website under > projects: StakePoint project management software (stakepoint.com) > > > >> When I do a yahoo search with the name of my website and then point to it >>> yahoo tells me: >>> >> >> How is this related to Pier? Can you provide more information? >> >> Cheers, >> Lukas >> >> -- >> Lukas Renggli >> http://www.lukas-renggli.ch >> _______________________________________________ >> Magritte, Pier and Related Tools ... >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/smallwiki >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Ce message entrant est certifie sans virus connu. > Analyse effectuee par AVG - www.avg.fr > Version: 8.5.375 / Base de donnees virale: 270.13.58/2306 - Date: 08/16/09 > 06:09:00 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Magritte, Pier and Related Tools ... > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/smallwiki > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From estebanlm at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 02:36:47 2009 From: estebanlm at gmail.com (Esteban Lorenzano) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 21:36:47 -0300 Subject: Magritte with Seaside29 does not works :( Message-ID: Hi, I tried magritte with seaside29 and it does not works at all... It hangs right after an asComponent who should display a single string. Unfortunatelly, my knowledge of magritte is just as an user, and I couldn't get why this is happening... but it is at some place at memento pull method. Cheers, Esteban From jborden23 at mac.com Wed Aug 19 04:23:44 2009 From: jborden23 at mac.com (John Borden) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 21:23:44 -0500 Subject: Shorter URLs for Squeak Message-ID: <012AFFCE-7FE9-48C3-9C86-A94FD42B87AC@mac.com> Hi Group, Can Squeak seaside server up something like http://localhost:8080/ pier or http://localhost:8080/ instead of http://localhost:8080/ seaside/pier (I don't want the seaside, setting pier as the root default is an improvement, but not the solution)? Cincom has SeasideShortPath which appears to do this (see http://www.seaside.st/ documentation/faq/how-to#264399711), has this been ported to Squeak? Thanks, John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From renggli at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 07:27:17 2009 From: renggli at gmail.com (Lukas Renggli) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 07:27:17 +0200 Subject: Shorter URLs for Squeak In-Reply-To: <012AFFCE-7FE9-48C3-9C86-A94FD42B87AC@mac.com> References: <012AFFCE-7FE9-48C3-9C86-A94FD42B87AC@mac.com> Message-ID: <67628d690908182227i26fa90b9m22c2740e7a64709b@mail.gmail.com> > Can Squeak seaside server up something like?http://localhost:8080/pier > or?http://localhost:8080/?instead of http://localhost:8080/seaside/pier (I > don't want the seaside, setting pier as the root default is an improvement, > but not the solution)? We normally do that with Apache, see for a tutorial. Another possibility is to replace WADispatcher default to directly return your application. Cheers, Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch From renggli at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 07:32:13 2009 From: renggli at gmail.com (Lukas Renggli) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 07:32:13 +0200 Subject: Magritte with Seaside29 does not works :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67628d690908182232o348c4e94xecac95c5be86dfc0@mail.gmail.com> > I tried magritte with seaside29 and it does not works at all... It hangs > right after an asComponent who should display a single string. > Unfortunatelly, my knowledge of magritte is just as an user, and I couldn't > get why this is happening... but it is at some place at memento pull method. I am using Magritte and Seaside 2.9 since the beginning of this year and it works well for me. The Magritte model is independent of Seaside, so I don't see why the memento pull operation would be related to Seaside? - Did you run the test suite of Magritte-Model? - Does your #description method work if you call it directly without Seaside? Cheers, Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch From garduino at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 13:43:12 2009 From: garduino at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Germ=E1n_Arduino?=) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:43:12 -0300 Subject: CCS in Deployement In-Reply-To: References: <9C41174B-21CA-483A-9D9A-9C2E78196970@bergel.eu> <84C88391-F839-48FB-B481-1BBA7150BC75@iam.unibe.ch> <4A64E0EC.4010105@wanadoo.fr> <6ac749c10907210135o196cf0b3ja7235034c769e373@mail.gmail.com> <33245897.54337.1248168360048.JavaMail.www@wwinf2605> <6ac749c10907210230l7050c236x3330c5f8d21f02c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'f found my problem. May be trivial to people knowing deep Pier but was not to me. The problem was that I tried on a Windows machine, and then copied the directory to the target linux server and should be that Pier store the Windows paths somewhere because when I debugged on Linux I found that this was the problem (Pier was searching data, etc with a windows style path). Solution: Install from the .zip downloaded, not copying from an installation on another SO. Cheers. ======================================================== Germ?n S. Arduino Twitter: garduino Arduino Software & Web Hosting http://www.arduinosoftware.com ======================================================== 2009/7/23 Germ?n Arduino : > I've the same problem, also in a Linux box without Apache. > > The css don't works. As far as I saw all the files are on place, but the css > don't works. > > Cheers. > > > 2009/7/21 Damien Cassou : >> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Maarten >> MOSTERT wrote: >>> By CCS I meant all the style sheets. >> >> CSS then I guess :-) >> >> -- >> Damien Cassou >> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st >> >> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them >> popular by not having them." James Iry >> _______________________________________________ >> Magritte, Pier and Related Tools ... >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/smallwiki >> > From marianopeck at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 23:42:47 2009 From: marianopeck at gmail.com (Mariano Martinez Peck) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 20:42:47 -0100 Subject: CCS in Deployement In-Reply-To: References: <9C41174B-21CA-483A-9D9A-9C2E78196970@bergel.eu> <84C88391-F839-48FB-B481-1BBA7150BC75@iam.unibe.ch> <4A64E0EC.4010105@wanadoo.fr> <6ac749c10907210135o196cf0b3ja7235034c769e373@mail.gmail.com> <33245897.54337.1248168360048.JavaMail.www@wwinf2605> <6ac749c10907210230l7050c236x3330c5f8d21f02c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Germ?n Arduino wrote: > I'f found my problem. May be trivial to people knowing deep Pier but > was not to me. > > The problem was that I tried on a Windows machine, and then copied the > directory to the target linux server and should be that Pier store the > Windows paths somewhere because when I debugged on Linux I found that > this was the problem (Pier was searching data, etc with a windows > style path). > In Pier, under "systemmanagement" there is a "File Settings" with an input called: "Base Directory". If you change that to a linux directory, shouldn't it fix that problem? Cheers, Mariano > > Solution: Install from the .zip downloaded, not copying from an > installation on another SO. > > Cheers. > > ======================================================== > Germ?n S. Arduino Twitter: garduino > Arduino Software & Web Hosting http://www.arduinosoftware.com > ======================================================== > > > 2009/7/23 Germ?n Arduino : > > I've the same problem, also in a Linux box without Apache. > > > > The css don't works. As far as I saw all the files are on place, but the > css > > don't works. > > > > Cheers. > > > > > > 2009/7/21 Damien Cassou : > >> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Maarten > >> MOSTERT wrote: > >>> By CCS I meant all the style sheets. > >> > >> CSS then I guess :-) > >> > >> -- > >> Damien Cassou > >> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st > >> > >> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them > >> popular by not having them." James Iry > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Magritte, Pier and Related Tools ... > >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/smallwiki > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Magritte, Pier and Related Tools ... > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/smallwiki > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ciprian.teodorov at univ-brest.fr Mon Aug 24 12:49:55 2009 From: ciprian.teodorov at univ-brest.fr (Ciprian Teodorov) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 12:49:55 +0200 Subject: Picasa client for Pier Message-ID: <4bd493810908240349k7a5cb7b5l156f9ffba1e79fcf@mail.gmail.com> Hi everybody, If somebody is interested, I implemented a small picasaweb plugin for Pier which permits to embed the albums and the photos from picasa into a running pier web application. The plugin source is posted on squeaksource site: http://squeaksource.com/@uxjO7eHSe8tI9dKs/9zFmuhpA. And an example of how it works can be seen on my site http://www.teodorov.ro/about/Photos. Cheers, -- Ciprian TEODOROV Ph.D Student Lab-STICC/AS CNRS UMR 3192 University of Brest phone: (+33)(0) 6 08 54 73 48 www.teodorov.ro http://as.univ-brest.fr/ciprian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From renggli at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 13:21:41 2009 From: renggli at gmail.com (Lukas Renggli) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 13:21:41 +0200 Subject: Picasa client for Pier In-Reply-To: <4bd493810908240349k7a5cb7b5l156f9ffba1e79fcf@mail.gmail.com> References: <4bd493810908240349k7a5cb7b5l156f9ffba1e79fcf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <67628d690908240421p697ff073t13e4439ce0b857f3@mail.gmail.com> > If somebody is interested, I implemented a small picasaweb plugin for Pier > which permits to embed the albums and the photos from picasa > into a running pier web application. The plugin source is posted on > squeaksource site: http://squeaksource.com/@uxjO7eHSe8tI9dKs/9zFmuhpA. Cool! What is the name of the repository URL? The link you gave is unfortunately not restful. > And an example of how it works can be seen on my site > http://www.teodorov.ro/about/Photos. I put a link to your site on , I hope you don't mind? Cheers, Lukas > > Cheers, > -- > Ciprian TEODOROV > Ph.D Student > Lab-STICC/AS CNRS UMR 3192 > University of Brest > > phone: (+33)(0) 6 08 54 73 48 > www.teodorov.ro > http://as.univ-brest.fr/ciprian > > > _______________________________________________ > Magritte, Pier and Related Tools ... > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/smallwiki > -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch From nicolas.roard at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 13:23:37 2009 From: nicolas.roard at gmail.com (Nicolas Roard) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 12:23:37 +0100 Subject: Picasa client for Pier In-Reply-To: <4bd493810908240349k7a5cb7b5l156f9ffba1e79fcf@mail.gmail.com> References: <4bd493810908240349k7a5cb7b5l156f9ffba1e79fcf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <25626500908240423k6caf0d1fqa159f21aed57ae7@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Ciprian Teodorov wrote: > Hi everybody, > > If somebody is interested, I implemented a small picasaweb plugin for Pier > which permits to embed the albums and the photos from picasa > into a running pier web application. The plugin source is posted on > squeaksource site: http://squeaksource.com/@uxjO7eHSe8tI9dKs/9zFmuhpA. > And an example of how it works can be seen on my site > http://www.teodorov.ro/about/Photos. Very cool! Are you planning something similar for flickr ? -- Nicolas Roard "I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." -- Douglas Adams From damien.cassou at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 13:54:47 2009 From: damien.cassou at gmail.com (Damien Cassou) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 13:54:47 +0200 Subject: Picasa client for Pier In-Reply-To: <4bd493810908240349k7a5cb7b5l156f9ffba1e79fcf@mail.gmail.com> References: <4bd493810908240349k7a5cb7b5l156f9ffba1e79fcf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6ac749c10908240454v72d6fe7cyee2566e2c252315c@mail.gmail.com> Hi Ciprian, On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 12:49 PM, Ciprian Teodorov wrote: > > If somebody is interested, I implemented a small picasaweb plugin for Pier > which permits to embed the albums and the photos from picasa > into a running pier web application. The plugin source is posted on > squeaksource site: http://squeaksource.com/@uxjO7eHSe8tI9dKs/9zFmuhpA. > And an example of how it works can be seen on my site > http://www.teodorov.ro/about/Photos. do you think it could be possible to integrate your work on Pier-Gallery (http://source.lukas-renggli.ch/pieraddons)? -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry From ciprian.teodorov at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 15:50:33 2009 From: ciprian.teodorov at gmail.com (Ciprian Teodorov) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 15:50:33 +0200 Subject: Picasa client for Pier In-Reply-To: <67628d690908240421p697ff073t13e4439ce0b857f3@mail.gmail.com> References: <4bd493810908240349k7a5cb7b5l156f9ffba1e79fcf@mail.gmail.com> <67628d690908240421p697ff073t13e4439ce0b857f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4bd493810908240650o5daec887ka7e0e2f0f460f7e6@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote: > > If somebody is interested, I implemented a small picasaweb plugin for > Pier > > which permits to embed the albums and the photos from picasa > > into a running pier web application. The plugin source is posted on > > squeaksource site: http://squeaksource.com/@uxjO7eHSe8tI9dKs/9zFmuhpA. > > Cool! What is the name of the repository URL? The link you gave is > unfortunately not restful. > Sorry for the link -- here you have the good one ;) http://www.squeaksource.com/PicasaClient/ > > > And an example of how it works can be seen on my site > > http://www.teodorov.ro/about/Photos. > > I put a link to your site on , I > hope you don't mind? Np > Cheers, > Lukas > > > > > Cheers, > > -- > > Ciprian TEODOROV > > Ph.D Student > > Lab-STICC/AS CNRS UMR 3192 > > University of Brest > > > > phone: (+33)(0) 6 08 54 73 48 > > www.teodorov.ro > > http://as.univ-brest.fr/ciprian > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Magritte, Pier and Related Tools ... > > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/smallwiki > > > > > > -- > Lukas Renggli > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch > _______________________________________________ > Magritte, Pier and Related Tools ... > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/smallwiki > -- Ciprian TEODOROV Ph.D Student Lab-STICC/AS CNRS UMR 3192 University of Brest phone: (+33)(0) 6 08 54 73 48 site: http://as.univ-brest.fr/ciprian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From garduino at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 00:09:24 2009 From: garduino at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Germ=E1n_Arduino?=) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 19:09:24 -0300 Subject: CCS in Deployement In-Reply-To: References: <9C41174B-21CA-483A-9D9A-9C2E78196970@bergel.eu> <84C88391-F839-48FB-B481-1BBA7150BC75@iam.unibe.ch> <4A64E0EC.4010105@wanadoo.fr> <6ac749c10907210135o196cf0b3ja7235034c769e373@mail.gmail.com> <33245897.54337.1248168360048.JavaMail.www@wwinf2605> <6ac749c10907210230l7050c236x3330c5f8d21f02c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Not, the problem was the one I commented. Thanks by the help. See you. 2009/8/21 Mariano Martinez Peck : > > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Germ?n Arduino wrote: >> >> I'f found my problem. May be trivial to people knowing deep Pier but >> was not to me. >> >> The problem was that I tried on a Windows machine, and then copied the >> directory to the target linux server and should be that Pier store the >> Windows paths somewhere because when I debugged on Linux I found that >> this was the problem (Pier was searching data, etc with a windows >> style path). > > In Pier, under "systemmanagement" there is a "File Settings" with an input > called: "Base Directory". If you change that to a linux directory, shouldn't > it fix that problem? > > Cheers, > > Mariano > >> >> Solution: Install from the .zip downloaded, not copying from an >> installation on another SO. >> >> Cheers. >> >> ======================================================== >> Germ?n S. Arduino ? ? Twitter: garduino >> Arduino Software & Web Hosting ? http://www.arduinosoftware.com >> ======================================================== >> >> >> 2009/7/23 Germ?n Arduino : >> > I've the same problem, also in a Linux box without Apache. >> > >> > The css don't works. As far as I saw all the files are on place, but the >> > css >> > don't works. >> > >> > Cheers. >> > >> > >> > 2009/7/21 Damien Cassou : >> >> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Maarten >> >> MOSTERT wrote: >> >>> By CCS I meant all the style sheets. >> >> >> >> CSS then I guess :-) >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Damien Cassou >> >> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st >> >> >> >> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them >> >> popular by not having them." James Iry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Magritte, Pier and Related Tools ... >> >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/smallwiki >> >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Magritte, Pier and Related Tools ... >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/smallwiki > > > _______________________________________________ > Magritte, Pier and Related Tools ... > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/smallwiki >